[Pydotorg-redesign] Redesigned version of current home page

[A.M. Kuchling]

After some c.l.python discussion, here's a revised version of some
tweaks to the current home page. The sidebar has had a few more links
added and subtracted, and the top bar has had the number of links
trimmed from 8 to 6, making the list short enough that it can be put
into a single row.

Comments? Can I begin implementing these changes on python.org?

--amk

[Aahz]

Post by A.M. Kuchling
After some c.l.python discussion, here's a revised version of some
tweaks to the current home page. The sidebar has had a few more links
added and subtracted, and the top bar has had the number of links
trimmed from 8 to 6, making the list short enough that it can be put
into a single row.
Comments? Can I begin implementing these changes on python.org?

Mind reposting the URL so I don't have to dig it up?

[A.M. Kuchling]

Post by A.M. Kuchling
After some c.l.python discussion, here's a revised version of some
tweaks to the current home page.

Laura Creighton points out that the URL might help:
http://www.amk.ca/python.org.html
D'ohh!

--amk

[Dylan Reinhardt]

Post by A.M. Kuchling

Post by A.M. Kuchling
After some c.l.python discussion, here's a revised version of some
tweaks to the current home page.

http://www.amk.ca/python.org.html
D'ohh!

What you've suggested is actually less usable than what we already have.

Putting small, plain, mid-contrast text above large, bold, high-contrast
styled text virtually assures that the smaller text will completely
disappear. Laying the old menu out in garish columns was about the only
thing that made it register on the eye _at all_.

Bottom line, if the menu is less noticeable, the site is less navigable.

But why are we tweaking this design? Our web site needs far more than
any amount of incremental revision is likely to give it. Really, it's
long past time we took this old dog out behind the barn and shot it.

Rather than tinkering with what we have, we should devote our efforts to
refining and implementing one of the many *good* designs that have
already been contributed.

FWIW,

Dylan

[A.M. Kuchling]

But I am too busy to try to design a layout until mid October. This
is better than what we have, but I think that we have structural problems.
Getting a consensus on what would be 'better' however, may be a hard
problem.

True, but I still think we should make incremental improvements to the
existing site while waiting for the redesign.

The redesign will take a few months to complete, and improving the
existing site a bit is a negligible amount of effort, so why not do
it? (And what if the redesign never happens, if Tim Parkin has to go
do paying work or if we never converge on an improved design? The
site is stuck with the existing jumble.)

If the changed top nav-bar is controversial, I can readily revert it
to the 8-link two-column version.

--amk

[Dylan Reinhardt]

Post by A.M. Kuchling
(And what if the redesign never happens, if Tim Parkin has to go
do paying work or if we never converge on an improved design? The
site is stuck with the existing jumble.)

I don't sense that Tim's having difficulty finding paying work. My
concern is that we might delay taking action so long he loses interest
in working with us.

Post by A.M. Kuchling
If the changed top nav-bar is controversial, I can readily revert it
to the 8-link two-column version.

Whatever we do, let's make migrating the design the real focus.


$.02,

Dylan

[Aahz]

Post by A.M. Kuchling

Post by A.M. Kuchling
After some c.l.python discussion, here's a revised version of some
tweaks to the current home page.

http://www.amk.ca/python.org.html
D'ohh!

Thanks!

First the things I'm going to push strongly for:

* Add a mini-search form at top of side navbar (but this should probably
be a separate discussion)

* Add the "Python Project" link back


Things I think can/should be done:

* Remove "contact us" link from top navbar -- perhaps it's time to
create a bottom navbar?

* Remove PEPs link

* In the side navbar, "versions" should link to download, "docs" should
link to docs, and "community" should link to community

* Add the abbreviations for PSF and PBF

* Add PyCon to sidebar

* Add donation link to PSF

* Remove editors link

[amk at amk.ca ()]

Post by Aahz
* Remove "contact us" link from top navbar -- perhaps it's time to
create a bottom navbar?

Pages that use table-stop (e.g. www.python.org/Mirrors.html) will make this
tricky. Where should the bottom navbar go in this case, below the table of
mirror sites or above it?

Post by Aahz
* Remove PEPs link

How come? PEPs *are* documentation of a sort, and some features (e.g.
new-style classes) are only really documented in the relevant PEPs.

The rest of your suggestions seem uncontroversial.

Hm... just realized the top navbar is broken in Opera for some reason; will
look into it...

--amk

[Aahz]

Post by amk at amk.ca ()

Post by Aahz
* Remove "contact us" link from top navbar -- perhaps it's time to
create a bottom navbar?

Pages that use table-stop (e.g. www.python.org/Mirrors.html) will make
this tricky. Where should the bottom navbar go in this case, below
the table of mirror sites or above it?

I'd put it just above </body>. That way everyone knows to go to the
bottom of the page. I see lots of sites putting things like contact,
legal notices, and stuff like that there; it's reasonably consistent.
We should also have a second sitemap link there.

Post by amk at amk.ca ()

Post by Aahz
* Remove PEPs link

How come? PEPs *are* documentation of a sort, and some features (e.g.
new-style classes) are only really documented in the relevant PEPs.

Yeah, I'm just not sure it belongs on the front-page side navbar. They
certainly should receive more prominence on other pages. I also think
that PEPs tend to get misunderstood by people who don't already
understand the Python development process.

[Fred L. Drake, Jr.]

Post by amk at amk.ca ()
Pages that use table-stop (e.g. www.python.org/Mirrors.html) will make this
tricky. Where should the bottom navbar go in this case, below the table of
mirror sites or above it?

All the way at the end (after the continuation). Though I really
don't like putting it there at all.

Post by amk at amk.ca ()

Post by Aahz
* Remove PEPs link

How come? PEPs *are* documentation of a sort, and some features (e.g.
new-style classes) are only really documented in the relevant PEPs.

End-users shouldn't normally need to go PEP-diving. The fact that not
all documentation for end-users gets migrated to the documentation is
a doc bug, not a reason to link to the PEPs. (SF bugs should be filed
for these where they don't already exist.)


-Fred

[amk at amk.ca ()]

I've checked in the sidebar and main text changes, but haven't made them
live yet. The top navbar is unchanged.

Post by Aahz
* Add the "Python Project" link back

Do you mean the "Python Project: [bugs] [patches] [cvs]" link, or just a
link to /dev/?

Post by Aahz
* Remove PEPs link

Not done because IMHO the link is useful.

Post by Aahz
* In the side navbar, "versions" should link to download, "docs" should
link to docs, and "community" should link to community

This is doable, but the resulting links are dark blue on darker blue. We'd
need to fix this (perhaps by using <th> instead of <tr><font color="...">
and then using CSS), but that's more horsing around than I want to do
on a laptop with 30 minutes of power left.

Aahz, feel free to make any of the above changes and/or the Google search
form and check them in. Otherwise, let me know and I'll just make the
current version live.

--amk

[Aahz]

Post by amk at amk.ca ()
I've checked in the sidebar and main text changes, but haven't made them
live yet. The top navbar is unchanged.

Yay!

Post by amk at amk.ca ()

Post by Aahz
* Add the "Python Project" link back

Do you mean the "Python Project: [bugs] [patches] [cvs]" link, or just a
link to /dev/?

The former. It's not because I like those three extra links; they're
just to provide additional cues that this is for people working on Python
rather than writing Python programs.

Post by amk at amk.ca ()

Post by Aahz
* Remove PEPs link

Not done because IMHO the link is useful.

Okie-doke; stuck the Python Project link above it so people will hit that
first.

Post by amk at amk.ca ()

Post by Aahz
* In the side navbar, "versions" should link to download, "docs" should
link to docs, and "community" should link to community

This is doable, but the resulting links are dark blue on darker blue.
We'd need to fix this (perhaps by using <th> instead of <tr><font
color="..."> and then using CSS), but that's more horsing around than
I want to do on a laptop with 30 minutes of power left.

All right, I'll leave that alone for the moment, since I'm not messing
with color. ;-)

Post by amk at amk.ca ()
Aahz, feel free to make any of the above changes and/or the Google search
form and check them in. Otherwise, let me know and I'll just make the
current version live.

I've gone ahead and made it live. After starting to play around with the
Google stuff, I realized I had neither knowledge nor privs to make the
necessary changes, since we want that on every page. (There should be a
/search.h that PDOGenerator sticks at the top of the navbar, I think.)
I have asked for privs, but I don't know how long knowledge acquisition
will take. I'm attaching my proposed Google piece in case you're feeling
up to it.

[Skip Montanaro]

Post by A.M. Kuchling
After some c.l.python discussion, here's a revised version of some
tweaks to the current home page.

...

I know Tim Parkin doesn't really like this idea, but I'll toss it out
nonetheless. Here's a modified version of Andrew's revised home page which
puts a Google search box near the top of the left margin. I don't think
Google should have anything to complain about (are we required to provide
web & python.org radio buttons?), but the (required?) Google logo doesn't
look good over the non-white background.

http://manatee.mojam.com/~skip/amk.html

Skip

[Todd Grimason]

Post by Skip Montanaro
nonetheless. Here's a modified version of Andrew's revised home page which
puts a Google search box near the top of the left margin. I don't think
Google should have anything to complain about (are we required to provide
web & python.org radio buttons?), but the (required?) Google logo doesn't
look good over the non-white background.
http://manatee.mojam.com/~skip/amk.html

I think this is a really good idea and worthwhile improvement until we
reach "the promised land", especially as we've all agreed the IA of
the current site leaves a bit to be desired, a search tool (assuming
it works well enough) is great to have front and center.

I'll add to the chorus that this and any of the improvements by amk
are well worth making while a complete overhaul is in limbo and/or
development.

Maybe someone more familiar with Google requirements would know where
to get a logo not anti-aliased on a white bg? Or maybe it should
actually be an InfoSeek logo at this point?

[Aahz]

Post by Skip Montanaro
I know Tim Parkin doesn't really like this idea, but I'll toss it out
nonetheless. Here's a modified version of Andrew's revised home page which
puts a Google search box near the top of the left margin. I don't think
Google should have anything to complain about (are we required to provide
web & python.org radio buttons?), but the (required?) Google logo doesn't
look good over the non-white background.
http://manatee.mojam.com/~skip/amk.html

That's exactly what I'm planning to do as soon as AMK uploads his new
version.

[Tim Parkin]

Post by Skip Montanaro
I know Tim Parkin doesn't really like this idea, but I'll toss it out
nonetheless. Here's a modified version of Andrew's revised home page

which

Post by Skip Montanaro
puts a Google search box near the top of the left margin. I don't

think

Post by Skip Montanaro
Google should have anything to complain about (are we required to

provide

Post by Skip Montanaro
web & python.org radio buttons?), but the (required?) Google logo

doesn't

Post by Skip Montanaro
look good over the non-white background.

Hi skip, I'm not against the idea of using google at all, my only issues
were i) it doesn't negatively affect the design layout of the site and
ii) we abide by google licensing guidlelines. I think Google does a
remarkable job as a full site search, a huge amount better than most
generic (ie not site optimised) searches.

It might be wise to remove the add the www subdomain to the google
search as you get a lot of low quality results through the mailing lists
otherwise. I've altered the following example to just limite to www so
you can compare. I've also tweaked the graphics and spacing a little. I
also have a version with the 'search' text inside the form field as I
was unsure how well the logo worked with 'search' underneath.

http://pollenation.net/assets/public/python.org.html

My only previous comments were that I believe an site specific and site
optimised search tool would offer substantial benefits, both in design
flexibility (I mean information design as well as visual design) and
quality/specificity of search results. I think myself and Skip had
agreed that we'd leave the possible test of that to a much later day.

Tim