[Pydotorg-redesign] Design, Logo's, Images

Post by Just van Rossum
I've been lurking here for a while and I must say I'm quite happy
people are still mostly concentrating on the contents and organization
of the site. I'd be happy to contribute some time working on the

actual

Post by Just van Rossum
design and I'm sure I can convince my LettError buddy Erik to do the
same.

It's cool that the design can have a group of people discussing it.
Would you mind taking a look at the designs on the wiki at the moment
and making a couple of comments?

Heres the main links to save time

http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/index_rounded.html
http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/index.html
http://styx.livinglogic.de/~walter/www.python.org-converted/

Post by Just van Rossum
able to agree what it means for a site to look "professional"). There
can be competing proposals, but the final choice will either have to
made by Guido, or a (very) small group of people that he assigns.

I totally agree, having worked for various graphic design agencies
(albeit not in a direct design role) the worst results have always been
when all of the customer board of directors want a part of the design
and all the best ones where a small group has had a free hand in
producing the designs and the committee has made decisions on favourites
where this is appropriate and advisable.

Post by Just van Rossum
It seems that an earlier attempt (from us) at a new Python logo has
been mostly forgotten.

Loading Image...

While we're batting things about, what do you think of these possibles?

http://pollenation.net/assets/public/pydotorg-redesign/python-logo-test.
gif

And here is one of them on a website

http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/index_rounded_logo3.html

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

Tim
Pollenation

Skip Montanaro

2003-08-13 14:32:05 UTC

Tim> I've put together a few logos of other companies/langauges in a
Tim> similar space here and straight after a sample of logos that offer
Tim> a similar image.

Tim> http://pollenation.net/assets/public/samples.gif
Tim> http://pollenation.net/assets/public/similar.gif

Tim> While we're batting things about, what do you think of these
Tim> possibles?

I kind of like the infinity idea - "infinite possibilities". How about less
of a sideways "8"? Maybe a constant width path with an arrowhead along the
path somewhere? I can't draw worth a damn, so I can only describe what I'm
thinking of.

maybe-i'll-write-a-little-postscript-ly, y'rs,

Skip

Oktay Safak

2003-08-13 15:07:26 UTC

Post by Tim Parkin
It's cool that the design can have a group of people discussing it.

Yes, and graphic (or visual) design is orthogonal to other issues, so we can
brainstorm on this in parallel to arcitechural/technical matters.

Post by Just van Rossum
But I also think it's time for something new. But more than anything,
(graphic) design by committee sucks. One person or one small group
should create a new design (I'm talking about the site as a whole, not
the just logo), and the community will have to live with the fact that
it will not be to everyone's taste (for example I'm sure we wouldn't
be able to agree what it means for a site to look "professional"). There
can be competing proposals, but the final choice will either have to
made by Guido, or a (very) small group of people that he assigns.

That's my experience too (as a somewhat semi-professional or hobbyist). I
totally agree with both of you, but before we are there, it's good to
brainstorm and collect feedback.

Post by Tim Parkin
While we're batting things about, what do you think of these possibles?
http://pollenation.net/assets/public/pydotorg-redesign/python-logo-test.
gif

The idea of the intifinity symbol is neat, but I can't say, err, your logos
hit me right on the spot ;)

Post by Tim Parkin
Thanks in advance for any feedback.

You're welcome, thanks for your efforts.

Regards,

Oktay

Steve Holden

2003-08-13 15:07:34 UTC

[tim parkin]

Post by Just van Rossum

Post by Just van Rossum
I've been lurking here for a while and I must say I'm quite happy
people are still mostly concentrating on the contents and

organization

Post by Just van Rossum
of the site. I'd be happy to contribute some time working on the

actual

Post by Just van Rossum
design and I'm sure I can convince my LettError buddy Erik

to do the

Post by Just van Rossum
same.

It's cool that the design can have a group of people discussing it.
Would you mind taking a look at the designs on the wiki at the moment
and making a couple of comments?
Heres the main links to save time
http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/index_rounded.html
http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/index.html
http://styx.livinglogic.de/~walter/www.python.org-converted/

I still like index-rounded.html Overall the look is a little bit
"PHP-nuke"-ish, but it works. The second pollenation page is second
favorite. The third page appears to me rather "heavy" on the left, so
the links distract form the main content.

Post by Just van Rossum

Post by Just van Rossum
But I also think it's time for something new. But more than

anything,

Post by Just van Rossum
(graphic) design by committee sucks. One person or one small group
should create a new design (I'm talking about the site as a

whole, not

Post by Just van Rossum
the just logo), and the community will have to live with

the fact that

Post by Just van Rossum
it will not be to everyone's taste (for example I'm sure we wouldn't

Post by Just van Rossum
able to agree what it means for a site to look

"professional"). There

Post by Just van Rossum
can be competing proposals, but the final choice will

either have to

Post by Just van Rossum
made by Guido, or a (very) small group of people that he assigns.

I totally agree, having worked for various graphic design agencies
(albeit not in a direct design role) the worst results have
always been
when all of the customer board of directors want a part of the design
and all the best ones where a small group has had a free hand in
producing the designs and the committee has made decisions on
favourites
where this is appropriate and advisable.

Yes, I recently suggested that Guido should decree what the process was
going to be, he's far too busy with security matters for this (though it
's nice to see he's reading the list). Guido?

Post by Just van Rossum

Post by Just van Rossum
It seems that an earlier attempt (from us) at a new Python logo has
been mostly forgotten.

I'd seen the logo and wondered what it was for, I like it but but not
certain if the colours are what people want. It's also quite
playful but
I'm not sure if that's typical of the space in which Python should be
positioned. I've put together a few logos of other companies/langauges
in a similar space here and straight after a sample of logos
that offer
a similar image.
http://pollenation.net/assets/public/samples.gif
http://pollenation.net/assets/public/similar.gif
While we're batting things about, what do you think of these
possibles?
http://pollenation.net/assets/public/pydotorg-redesign/python-

logo-test.
gif

And here is one of them on a website

http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/index_rounded_logo3.html

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

FWIW, I like the fifth one down in logo-test.gif. The color is Pythonic
and the font is clean and (dare I say) "professional"-looking.

Rather than the current loop, however, could we try a snake eating its
own tail, Ouroboros-like, but in a figure-of-eight shape (not sure how a
blue snake is going to look, but my color judgment is nil anyway).

Tim, I think almost any of the suggested changes would represent a great
increase in the site's attractiveness and readability, and I hope that
you are allowed to proceed with a visual redesign with all possible
speed.

regards
--
Steve Holden http://www.holdenweb.com/
Python Web Programming http://pydish.holdenweb.com/pwp/

Walter Dörwald

2003-08-13 15:28:33 UTC

Post by Steve Holden
[...]

Post by Tim Parkin
http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/index_rounded.html
http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/index.html
http://styx.livinglogic.de/~walter/www.python.org-converted/

Sure, but that's because
http://styx.livinglogic.de/~walter/www.python.org-converted/
has been automatically converted from the current site with
it's many links in the sidebar. Take a look at
http://styx.livinglogic.de/~walter/www.python.org/
with has a handcrafted demo sidebar.

Post by Steve Holden
[...]

Bye,
Walter D?rwald

Guido van Rossum

2003-08-14 00:05:03 UTC

Post by Steve Holden
Yes, I recently suggested that Guido should decree what the process was
going to be, he's far too busy with security matters for this (though it
's nice to see he's reading the list). Guido?

The PSF board just formed a committee chaired by Thomas Wouters for
this purpose. There's discussion in the board list about a
technicality WRT the proper creation of the committee, but IMO this
committee should set the process.

Post by Steve Holden
http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/index_rounded_logo3.html
Thanks in advance for any feedback.

I find the font used in that logo hideous. But maybe Just can
convince me that it's state of the art. :-)

I find the page design itself too bland, it doesn't have enough
personality.

--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

Tim Parkin

2003-08-13 16:55:11 UTC

Post by Steve Holden
The third page appears to me rather "heavy" on the left, so
the links distract form the main content.

Oops .. Sorry I just took the latest one. I didn?t mean to misrepresent.

Tim

Walter Dörwald

2003-08-13 17:09:30 UTC

Post by Steve Holden
The third page appears to me rather "heavy" on the left, so
the links distract form the main content.

Oops .. Sorry I just took the latest one. I didn?t mean to misrepresent.

No problem.

I wonder how the navigation would work on your design. On the start page
(i.e. level 0 of the navigation) level 1 and 2 of the navigation are
unfolded. What happens when you click on a level 1 link? Will all other

About

For Beginners
For Developers
For Business
Download
Documentation
Community
...

(with ">" marking pages in the path to the current one) or should they
stay unfolded?

What happens on a level 2 page? Will the level 2 siblings of the

About
For Beginners
For absolute Beginners

For advanced Beginners
For Developers
For Business
Download
Docuementation
Community
...

About
For Beginners
For absolute Beginners

For advanced Beginners
Download
Docuementation
Community
...

What happens on lower levels (if we ever have them)?

How should the current page be marked and how should pages in
the path to the current page be marked. How about visited/unvisited?

Bye,
Walter D?rwald

Matt Goodall

2003-08-13 18:01:30 UTC

Post by Walter DÃ¶rwald
I wonder how the navigation would work on your design.

My comments below have nothing to do with one design or the another.
It's just a collection of thoughts I had as a read Walter's post.

Post by Walter DÃ¶rwald
On the start page
(i.e. level 0 of the navigation) level 1 and 2 of the navigation are
unfolded. What happens when you click on a level 1 link? Will all other

About

For Beginners
For Developers
For Business
Download
Documentation
Community
...

First, something solid to think about ...

If possible, I think we should aim for _no_ folding at all although that
depends on just how many links are needed in the menu.

... and now something decidedly wobbly, which is probably best ignored
;) ...

Something to *consider*, and I think it's been suggested before, is to
have distinct parts of the site dedicated to a certain type of user:
subsites if you like. The top nav could contain links to the subsites;
left-hand nav is specific to the subsite.

I admit that I have no idea what would go in which subsite but some of
the more obvious "splits" are end users, advocacy & marketing and core
development. Imagine finding out about Python, wandering along to the
site and discovering an entire subsite dedicated to learning Python. For
repeat users there would be targeted content - interesting news, package
releases and heaps of documentation. The core developer subsite could
contain bug trackers, cvs info, perhaps viewcvs and ... I'm not sure
what else.

This might also make it easier to delegate site maintenance to others.
It would make it more obvious anyway.

Is the site actually big enough for this? Probably not but there's no
harm in thinking bigger in anticipation of Python's dominance :). Even
if the site is big enough, there be a lot of overlap in content so it
may not be terribly realistic anyway.

Post by Walter DÃ¶rwald
What happens on a level 2 page? Will the level 2 siblings of the

I think if the menu gets 2 levels deep then it's too deep. Also, the
more levels there are, the shorter the link text can be - the menu needs
to be as thin as possible to leave room for the actual content.

Post by Walter DÃ¶rwald
What happens on lower levels (if we ever have them)?

I don't even want to think about that ;-).

- Matt

--
Matt Goodall, Pollenation Internet Ltd
w: http://www.pollenation.net
e: ***@pollenation.net

Walter Dörwald

2003-08-13 18:26:34 UTC

Post by Matt Goodall
[...]

Post by Walter DÃ¶rwald
On the start page
(i.e. level 0 of the navigation) level 1 and 2 of the navigation are
unfolded. What happens when you click on a level 1 link? Will all other

About

For Beginners
For Developers
For Business
Download
Documentation
Community
...

First, something solid to think about ...
If possible, I think we should aim for _no_ folding at all although that
depends on just how many links are needed in the menu.

What does that mean?

Will the level 2 pages appear as level 1 links on a level 1 page, i.e.
would the navigation bar on the "About page" simply look like this:

For Beginners
For Developers
For Business

with the look of the first level links (i.e. brown background, block
border)?

IMHO this is more confusing that at least keeping the level 1 page
that is in the path in the navigation bar. The siblings of the level 1

Post by Matt Goodall
About

For Beginners
For Developers
For Business

Post by Matt Goodall
... and now something decidedly wobbly, which is probably best ignored
;) ...

OK! ;)

Post by Matt Goodall
[...]
I think if the menu gets 2 levels deep then it's too deep. Also, the
more levels there are, the shorter the link text can be - the menu needs
to be as thin as possible to leave room for the actual content.

We already have three levels: The homepage is level 0, "About" is
level 1 and "About">"For Beginners" is level 2.

Indenting a level 3 page by 10 pixels shouldn't make the navigation
too wide.

Post by Walter DÃ¶rwald
What happens on lower levels (if we ever have them)?

I don't even want to think about that ;-).

So "Home">"Documentation">"Library Reference" )or
"Home">"Developers">"PEPs") is only one page and doesn't have any
subpages?

Bye,
Walter D?rwald

Matt Goodall

2003-08-13 19:05:39 UTC

Post by Matt Goodall
If possible, I think we should aim for _no_ folding at all although that
depends on just how many links are needed in the menu.

What does that mean?

That, if possible, the whole menu for the whole site should always be
visible, i.e. no magically appearing and disappearing bits. It's a goal
that I think would help the site's navigation, nothing more that that.

Post by Matt Goodall
I think if the menu gets 2 levels deep then it's too deep. Also, the
more levels there are, the shorter the link text can be - the menu needs
to be as thin as possible to leave room for the actual content.

We already have three levels: The homepage is level 0, "About" is
level 1 and "About">"For Beginners" is level 2.

My mistake, I meant _more than_ 2 levels deep.

Post by Walter DÃ¶rwald
What happens on lower levels (if we ever have them)?

I don't even want to think about that ;-).

So "Home">"Documentation">"Library Reference" )or
"Home">"Developers">"PEPs") is only one page and doesn't have any
subpages?

I hope I haven't misunderstood what you mean but ...

Sure they can have subpages but is there any need to clutter the
navigation menu up with them? I would have thought it better to have a
"proper" table of contents for those particular pages which is what both
the Library Reference and PEPs pages have today.

There is also the breadcrumb trail to use for deeper navigation and to
give the reader that sense of where they are. For instance, if you're
deep in the Library Reference documentation then the menu would be:

About
For beginners
...
Download
...

Post by Walter DÃ¶rwald
Documentation

Tutorials

Post by Walter DÃ¶rwald
Library Reference

...
...

and the breadcrumb trail would be:

Home > Documentation > Library Reference > Built-in Objects > Built-in
Exceptions

Hope that explains things a bit better. It always seems so obvious when
I'm the one doing the typing ;-).

- Matt

--
Matt Goodall, Pollenation Internet Ltd
w: http://www.pollenation.net
e: ***@pollenation.net

Walter Dörwald

2003-08-14 11:44:23 UTC

Post by Matt Goodall
[...]

Post by Walter DÃ¶rwald
What happens on lower levels (if we ever have them)?

I don't even want to think about that ;-).

So "Home">"Documentation">"Library Reference" )or
"Home">"Developers">"PEPs") is only one page and doesn't have any
subpages?

I hope I haven't misunderstood what you mean but ...
Sure they can have subpages but is there any need to clutter the
navigation menu up with them? I would have thought it better to have a
"proper" table of contents for those particular pages which is what both
the Library Reference and PEPs pages have today.
There is also the breadcrumb trail to use for deeper navigation and to
give the reader that sense of where they are. For instance, if you're
About
For beginners
...
Download
...

Post by Walter DÃ¶rwald
Documentation

Tutorials

Post by Walter DÃ¶rwald
Library Reference

...
...
Home > Documentation > Library Reference > Built-in Objects > Built-in
Exceptions
Hope that explains things a bit better. It always seems so obvious when
I'm the one doing the typing ;-).

OK, now I understand. The navigation always shows all pages upto
level 2, if we are on a level 3+x page this page won't be visible in
the navigation, but only in the breadcrumbs.

I guess as long as the pages in the path to this page are marked in the
navigation this should be OK.

Bye,
Walter D?rwald

Aahz

2003-08-13 18:18:23 UTC

Post by Walter DÃ¶rwald
About
For Beginners
For absolute Beginners

For advanced Beginners
Download
Docuementation
Community
...

That's what I'd like to see.

--
Aahz (***@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

This is Python. We don't care much about theory, except where it intersects
with useful practice. --Aahz

Steve Holden

2003-08-13 18:54:35 UTC

-----Original Message-----
Walter D?rwald
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 1:26 PM
To: Matt Goodall
Subject: Re: [Pydotorg-redesign] Design, Logo's, Images

Post by Matt Goodall
[...]

Post by Walter DÃ¶rwald
On the start page
(i.e. level 0 of the navigation) level 1 and 2 of the navigation are
unfolded. What happens when you click on a level 1 link?

Will all other

About

For Beginners
For Developers
For Business
Download
Documentation
Community
...

First, something solid to think about ...
If possible, I think we should aim for _no_ folding at all

although that

Post by Matt Goodall
depends on just how many links are needed in the menu.

What does that mean?

It means that the navigation features of the site should remain constant
rather than attempting to emulate a tree-structured navigation feature.

Will the level 2 pages appear as level 1 links on a level 1 page, i.e.
For Beginners
For Developers
For Business
with the look of the first level links (i.e. brown background, block
border)?

No. The links you mention should be inside a *second-level* navigation
feature, appearing in a position that?s common to all second-level
pages.

IMHO this is more confusing that at least keeping the level 1 page
that is in the path in the navigation bar. The siblings of the level 1

Post by Matt Goodall
About

For Beginners
For Developers
For Business

Post by Matt Goodall
... and now something decidedly wobbly, which is probably

best ignored

Post by Matt Goodall
;) ...

OK! ;)

Post by Matt Goodall
[...]
I think if the menu gets 2 levels deep then it's too deep. Also, the
more levels there are, the shorter the link text can be -

the menu needs

Post by Matt Goodall
to be as thin as possible to leave room for the actual content.

We already have three levels: The homepage is level 0, "About" is
level 1 and "About">"For Beginners" is level 2.
Indenting a level 3 page by 10 pixels shouldn't make the navigation
too wide.

Post by Walter DÃ¶rwald
What happens on lower levels (if we ever have them)?

I don't even want to think about that ;-).

So "Home">"Documentation">"Library Reference" )or
"Home">"Developers">"PEPs") is only one page and doesn't have any
subpages?

If you really want to show all intermediate levels of navigation then
the most obvious mechanism for that is to put breadcrumb-style links to
each level somewhere in the page content.

I don?t think it?s a good idea for navigation features to morph
themselves as the user interacts with the web - too many users miss the
analogy with a tree and find themselves confused as bits of the
navigation bar move around - or even seem to disappear when they scroll
off the bottom as a result of activating a heavily-populated section.

So, for definiteness, please excuse the ASCII art, I?d like to see
something more like this:

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------
------+
| Site-wide, always-available, every-page links
|

+-----------+-----------------------------------------------------------
------+
| First | Second-level nav links
|
| Level
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Nav | Third-level nav links, when required
|
| Links
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| | Hey, let?s have some content! |
| |
|
| |
|
| |
|
| |
|
| |
|
| |
|
| |
|

+-----------+-----------------------------------------------------------
------+

I agree it?s not high-tech, but it?s easy to understand, the navigation
bars are consistent throughout any given section of the site, and it?s
easy to work with.

I fear we?re in danger of ignoring the KISS principle here, which would
not be good given that we want to attract people who might be coming to
programming for the first time and thus not be familiar with the kinds
of structures we take for granted in the programming world.

regards
--
Steve Holden http://www.holdenweb.com/
Python Web Programming http://pydish.holdenweb.com/pwp/

Tim Parkin

2003-08-14 10:52:33 UTC

Post by Guido van Rossum

Post by Steve Holden
Yes, I recently suggested that Guido should decree what the process
was going to be, he's far too busy with security matters for this
(though it's nice to see he's reading the list). Guido?

What is the remit for this commitee (if you don't mind me asking).

Post by Guido van Rossum

Post by Steve Holden
http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/index_rounded_logo3.html
Thanks in advance for any feedback.

I find the font used in that logo hideous. But maybe Just can
convince me that it's state of the art. :-)

I think in the process of designing a new look, we need to have a
direction/brief and feedback plays a big part in approaching the desired
solution.

I know the logo doesn't seem important at all at this point in the
proceedings but it does dictate a lot of the look and feel of the site
(or particularly what the look and feel shouldn't be)

In this interest, could you say why you think the font was hideous and
do you like any of the others in the sample at

Loading Image...

If not can you say why? Or point to a type of font or logo that you
like? Theres another rendition at

http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/index_rounded_logo3.html

Which you may not like but in a different way e.g. for hideous, read
loathsome ;-)

Post by Guido van Rossum
I find the page design itself too bland, it doesn't have enough
personality.

I can understand that as I was working towards an 'understated' brief.
Do you mean you wish it to be more

i) upfront and commercial e.g.
http://www.discreet.com/index-nf.html
http://www.adobe.com/main.html
http://www.macromedia.com/

ii) colourful/playful e.g.
http://www.line6.com/
http://mindstorms.lego.com/eng/default.asp
http://www.shockwave.com/

iii) Profession but rich e.g.
http://www.peoplesoft.com
http://www.ibm.com/us/
http://www.sap.com/
http://www.atg.com

iv) Minimalist e.g.
http://www.whatdoiknow.org/
http://www.reservocation.com/
http://www.textism.com/

V) Minimalish(?) e.g.
http://www.37signals.com/dnf/
http://www.clagnut.com/
http://www.stopdesign.com/

Or are there any other sites that you could point at that you want
python to look like.

We're more than happy to put a lot of effort in to the visual and
navigational redesign but would like to feel we're heading in a
direction that people are happy with and is likely to be used. We would
like to feel that there is a good prospect of the effort being helpful
but if not then it would be better spent on other projects.

Apart from that, it's good to see lots of people taking part.

Tim

Guido van Rossum

2003-08-14 16:22:24 UTC

Post by Guido van Rossum
The PSF board just formed a committee chaired by Thomas Wouters for
this purpose. There's discussion in the board list about a
technicality WRT the proper creation of the committee, but IMO this
committee should set the process.

What is the remit for this commitee (if you don't mind me asking).

Quoting from the (not yet published) meetings of the boar meeting:

| It was
|
| RESOLVED, That a Project Management Committee, designated Python Website
| Committee, be formed to be responsible for the content and management of
| the Python Website (www.python.org), that its initial members be Thomas
| Wouters, Kevin Altis, Just van Rossum, Aahz and Fred L. Drake Jr., that
| it follows rules analog to those set for in the PSF bylaws for the PSF
| board with respect to voting and meetings, and that Thomas Wouters will
| be its initial chairman.

Post by Guido van Rossum

Post by Tim Parkin
http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/index_rounded_logo3.html
Thanks in advance for any feedback.

I find the font used in that logo hideous. But maybe Just can
convince me that it's state of the art. :-)

BTW Just is also on the committee, to make sure the design stands up
to professional design standards.

Post by Tim Parkin
I think in the process of designing a new look, we need to have a
direction/brief and feedback plays a big part in approaching the desired
solution.
I know the logo doesn't seem important at all at this point in the
proceedings but it does dictate a lot of the look and feel of the site
(or particularly what the look and feel shouldn't be)
In this interest, could you say why you think the font was hideous and
do you like any of the others in the sample at
http://pollenation.net/assets/public/python-logo-test.gif

I don't like any of them.

Post by Tim Parkin
If not can you say why?

No, my design sensibilities are real but often refuse verbalization
(same with my language design sensibilities actually).

Post by Tim Parkin
Or point to a type of font or logo that you like?

I'll leave that to Just.

Post by Tim Parkin
Theres another rendition at
http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/index_rounded_logo3.html
Which you may not like but in a different way e.g. for hideous, read
loathsome ;-)

Doesn't seem any different than the first one I didn't like. :-(

Post by Guido van Rossum
I find the page design itself too bland, it doesn't have enough
personality.

I can understand that as I was working towards an 'understated' brief.
Do you mean you wish it to be more
i) upfront and commercial e.g.
http://www.discreet.com/index-nf.html

OK but hate the Flash.

Post by Tim Parkin
http://www.adobe.com/main.html

OK.

Post by Tim Parkin
http://www.macromedia.com/

OK in style except the big flash takes up too much space.

Post by Tim Parkin
ii) colourful/playful e.g.
http://www.line6.com/

Yuck. I hate black backgrounds (actually any non-whit background) and
text inside images (hard to select).

Post by Tim Parkin
http://mindstorms.lego.com/eng/default.asp

The colors are fine, but again too much space devoted to animation,
and I don't like the font they use for small headings (I think we
should stick to default or at least universally aailable fonts).

Post by Tim Parkin
http://www.shockwave.com/

Looks OK. But our structure is probably not as regular.

Post by Tim Parkin
iii) Profession but rich e.g.
http://www.peoplesoft.com

I like it. I've always wanted the Python home page to use multiple
narrow columns to get more information in.

Post by Tim Parkin
http://www.ibm.com/us/

OK, but reminds me that this page (and many of the others above) seems
designed to be viewed at a particular width. I don't like that very
much (it's not how HTML was intended).

Post by Tim Parkin
http://www.sap.com/

A little too bold.

Post by Tim Parkin
http://www.atg.com

Nice.

Post by Tim Parkin
iv) Minimalist e.g.
http://www.whatdoiknow.org/

Amateurish (in the bad sense of the word). Hate the script font.

Post by Tim Parkin
http://www.reservocation.com/

Cool, but won't work for the amount of info we want to put on the
front page.

Post by Tim Parkin
http://www.textism.com/

Nah.

Post by Tim Parkin
V) Minimalish(?) e.g.
http://www.37signals.com/dnf/

Works for me, maybe a little too fragmented.

Post by Tim Parkin
http://www.clagnut.com/

Hm. There's something broken about the very uneven column lengths.
Also don't like the colors.

Post by Tim Parkin
http://www.stopdesign.com/

So-so. I'm not so keen on wide navigation columns on the right, I
realize.

Post by Tim Parkin
Or are there any other sites that you could point at that you want
python to look like.

www.python.org, but better :-)

Post by Tim Parkin
We're more than happy to put a lot of effort in to the visual and
navigational redesign but would like to feel we're heading in a
direction that people are happy with and is likely to be used. We would
like to feel that there is a good prospect of the effort being helpful
but if not then it would be better spent on other projects.

I'd like to separate the site's *structure* and its *visual design*.
For visual design, I think one person will have to come up with a
look. The structure ought to be worked out collaboratively (after
reading Steve Krug's "Don't Make Me *Think*").

Post by Tim Parkin
Apart from that, it's good to see lots of people taking part.

Definitely.

--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

Stephan Deibel

2003-08-14 17:18:17 UTC

Post by Tim Parkin
http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/index_rounded_logo3.html

In case it's worth anything, I rather liked the idea of using an infinity
in the logo. More than the spiral, tho that's not bad either.

Also like the above page in general, tho there are some problems in
spacing in the left margin on Mozilla 1.4.

Post by Tim Parkin
http://pollenation.net/assets/public/python-logo-test.gif

While I'm liking everything, I may as well mention I really like the
infinity with light coming from within too, although I doubt that will
work in small size, and it might look interesting to have the yellow light
illuminate the Python text too.

- Stephan

Skip Montanaro

2003-08-14 18:03:48 UTC

Post by Tim Parkin
http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/index_rounded_logo3.html

Stephan> In case it's worth anything, I rather liked the idea of using
Stephan> an infinity in the logo. More than the spiral, tho that's not
Stephan> bad either.

More on my infinity idea. Take a fat arrow. Now bend it into a figure-8
shape so that the arrow begins and ends at the intersection. (See attached
bad art.)

Skip
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Fred L. Drake, Jr.

2003-08-14 18:09:20 UTC