[Pydotorg-redesign] Rearranging the python.org sidebar (again!)

[A.M. Kuchling]

This round of web site revisions started a few weeks ago when I
suggested cleaning up the left-hand links on the very top page of
python.org. Despite all the changes since then, the sidebar has
undergone no changes.

The problem with the current sidebar is that it's too long and the
links are too jumbled.
My current draft is at http://www.amk.ca/python.org.html, but it still
needs work. Issues:

* Popular links is too vague a section title. Can someone suggest a
better title, or a rearrangement that makes the choice of title clear?

* The "Exits" section is a jumble of stuff. Why link to PyGame, not
NumPy or PIL or Reportlab or any number of worthy packages? Why link
to the particular topic of web hosting? I'd suggest just dropping the
entire "Exits" section, because it's not clear what it's for.

* "Commercial Exits" is also really long, yet it's still incomplete.
As M.-A. Lemburg pointed out a little while ago, his company, eGenix,
isn't listed. We lack a criterion for adding companies to this list.
IMHO this isn't important enough to consume space on the top page; the
section should be removed and the companies listed somewhere else (in a
marketing section?).

--amk

[Brett C.]

Post by A.M. Kuchling
This round of web site revisions started a few weeks ago when I
suggested cleaning up the left-hand links on the very top page of
python.org. Despite all the changes since then, the sidebar has
undergone no changes.

Just a quick thanks for all the work, Andrew.

Post by A.M. Kuchling
The problem with the current sidebar is that it's too long and the links
are too jumbled.
My current draft is at http://www.amk.ca/python.org.html, but it still
* Popular links is too vague a section title. Can someone suggest a
better title, or a rearrangement that makes the choice of title clear?

"Points of Interest"?

Post by A.M. Kuchling
* The "Exits" section is a jumble of stuff. Why link to PyGame, not
NumPy or PIL or Reportlab or any number of worthy packages? Why link to
the particular topic of web hosting? I'd suggest just dropping the
entire "Exits" section, because it's not clear what it's for.

Works for me. We really shouldn't try to play favorites so I say either
ditch it or have a separate page that is linked to that lists major
packages.

As for the explicit linking to PyGame, I bet that has to do with getting
new programmers by realizing they can use Python to make a game; doing
fast matrix math just doesn't strike me as something with a lot of pull
for most new programmers. =)

Post by A.M. Kuchling
* "Commercial Exits" is also really long, yet it's still incomplete. As
M.-A. Lemburg pointed out a little while ago, his company, eGenix, isn't
listed. We lack a criterion for adding companies to this list. IMHO
this isn't important enough to consume space on the top page; the
section should be removed and the companies listed somewhere else (in a
marketing section?).

Or have it on its own page that is linked off the currently named
"Popular Exits" page? And once again we should try to play favorites so
we should have a basic requirement to get on there (company promotes its
use of Python in a visible way?).

Now I have a question about acronyms. Currently there is a link to IDLE
and PEPs. Newbies will have no clue what either are. IDLE
unfortunately looks like an acronym. Perhaps we can change the link to
"IDLE editor" or something to make it more obvious what IDLE is? And as
for PEPs, we should just spell it out and put the acronym in parentheses
like the PSF is done on.

-Brett

[Oktay Safak]

Post by Brett C.
Now I have a question about acronyms. Currently there is a link to IDLE
and PEPs. Newbies will have no clue what either are. IDLE
unfortunately looks like an acronym. Perhaps we can change the link to
"IDLE editor" or something to make it more obvious what IDLE is? And as
for PEPs, we should just spell it out and put the acronym in parentheses
like the PSF is done on.

Tool-tips might be a good option here.

Regards,

Oktay

[Matt Goodall]

Post by Oktay Safak

Post by Brett C.
Now I have a question about acronyms. Currently there is a link to IDLE
and PEPs. Newbies will have no clue what either are. IDLE
unfortunately looks like an acronym. Perhaps we can change the link to
"IDLE editor" or something to make it more obvious what IDLE is? And as
for PEPs, we should just spell it out and put the acronym in parentheses
like the PSF is done on.

Tool-tips might be a good option here.

We tend to scan web pages very quickly with our eyes so I doubt tooltips
will help much here. Tooltips are great for providing additional
information about a link the reader has already seen but are not so good
for catching their attention in the first place.

What about "Builtin IDE (IDLE)" and "Enhancement Proposals"? Perhaps
with tooltips to describe them in more detail if that is useful.

I'm not even sure these links should be so prominent anyway. IDLE should
be mentioned in the tutorials, in a bullet point list of Python
strengths/features and in the list of editors. PEPs are only really of
interest to more advanced users so they'll already know exactly where to
find them.

As an aside, I really think that the top-left part of the nav needs to
be **completely** set aside for finding out about Python, particularly
for welcoming beginners.

- Matt

[Oktay Safak]

Post by Matt Goodall

Post by Oktay Safak
Tool-tips might be a good option here.

We tend to scan web pages very quickly with our eyes so I doubt tooltips
will help much here.

Agreed.

Post by Matt Goodall
Tooltips are great for providing additional
information about a link the reader has already seen but are not so good
for catching their attention in the first place.

Well, the three major links that are acronyms are IDLE, SIGs and PEPs, I
guess. SIGs and PEPs aren't likely to be of interest to a newcomer so
tool-tips would provide enough explanation for them. IDLE is the one that we
need to make more prominent here. A tool-tip (even a somewhat long one)
would help but I agree that it should catch attention during a visual scan.
"IDLE: Python IDE" or your suggestion would be nice but I think a link
should be short enough to fit in one line on the left nav-bar.

So, I think, in addition to the above mentioned methods and better
placement, we should be using stylistic difference for links that we want to
stand out from the rest while making sure that this doesn't impact the page
design negatively. Exactly what those would be up to the visual designer. If
that can be done properly, this will even result in a richer visual
experience.

Post by Matt Goodall
What about "Builtin IDE (IDLE)" and "Enhancement Proposals"? Perhaps
with tooltips to describe them in more detail if that is useful.

Yep. See above.

Regards,

Oktay

[Matt Goodall]

Post by Oktay Safak

Post by Matt Goodall
Tooltips are great for providing additional
information about a link the reader has already seen but are not so good
for catching their attention in the first place.

Well, the three major links that are acronyms are IDLE, SIGs and PEPs, I
guess. SIGs and PEPs aren't likely to be of interest to a newcomer so
tool-tips would provide enough explanation for them.

Actually, SIGS are *extremely* important right now for the sole reason
that it's where the DB-API is documented. That specification should be
more prominent although I haven't got any suggestions.

Post by Oktay Safak
So, I think, in addition to the above mentioned methods and better
placement, we should be using stylistic difference for links that we want to
stand out from the rest while making sure that this doesn't impact the page
design negatively. Exactly what those would be up to the visual designer. If
that can be done properly, this will even result in a richer visual
experience.

I would say that any links that need to stand out should simply be
placed toward the top of the menu or , if they're **really** important,
should exist in the nav area at the top of the page (to the right of the
logo). However, using stylistic differences to help readers scan the
page looking for relevant information or links is a good idea. Group
headers in large menus are one example of this - looks different so
gives the eye something to focus in on and contains some text to tell
the reader that they're on the right path.

- Matt

[Aahz]

Post by Matt Goodall
Actually, SIGS are *extremely* important right now for the sole reason
that it's where the DB-API is documented. That specification should be
more prominent although I haven't got any suggestions.

But it's not something someone going to the home page needs. I think
that having it on the Community page is probably enough, and can be
expanded there with more detail.

[Matt Goodall]

Post by Aahz

Post by Matt Goodall
Actually, SIGS are *extremely* important right now for the sole reason
that it's where the DB-API is documented. That specification should be
more prominent although I haven't got any suggestions.

But it's not something someone going to the home page needs. I think
that having it on the Community page is probably enough, and can be
expanded there with more detail.

Very true, although I was really just raising the issue before I forgot
again ;-).

Having said that, support for database access is probably one of the key
things people will look for when evaluating the language. For me, and
probably lots of other people, it's a very important part of Python. I
know the DB-API isn't core Python but it would be great to get a link to
it on the main documentation page.

- Matt

[Aahz]

Post by Matt Goodall
Having said that, support for database access is probably one of the key
things people will look for when evaluating the language. For me, and
probably lots of other people, it's a very important part of Python. I
know the DB-API isn't core Python but it would be great to get a link to
it on the main documentation page.

How about the Why Python? pages?

[Fred L. Drake, Jr.]

Post by Matt Goodall
Having said that, support for database access is probably one of the key
things people will look for when evaluating the language. For me, and
probably lots of other people, it's a very important part of Python. I

Definately.

Post by Matt Goodall
know the DB-API isn't core Python but it would be great to get a link to
it on the main documentation page.

I've added a link on the left navigation bar, next to the regular
expressions link.

Post by Matt Goodall
How about the Why Python? pages?

The existance of a common database API is a good reason why, so do
include a link there, along with a short explanation as to why it's
interesting.


-Fred

[Matt Goodall]

Post by Aahz

Post by Matt Goodall
Having said that, support for database access is probably one of the key
things people will look for when evaluating the language. For me, and
probably lots of other people, it's a very important part of Python. I
know the DB-API isn't core Python but it would be great to get a link to
it on the main documentation page.

How about the Why Python? pages?

It should certainly say "has great database support" on the "Why
Python?" pages but I was talking about the actual API: connect(),
cursor(), commit() and rollback() etc.

- Matt

[A.M. Kuchling]

Post by Matt Goodall
probably lots of other people, it's a very important part of Python. I
know the DB-API isn't core Python but it would be great to get a link to
it on the main documentation page.

A link to /topics/database might be better, since the topic guide also
links to the various database modules.

--amk

[Fred L. Drake, Jr.]

Post by A.M. Kuchling
A link to /topics/database might be better, since the topic guide also
links to the various database modules.

That's what I used, since it contains prominent links to both versions
of the API and the list of implementations.


-Fred

[Matt Goodall]

Post by Fred L. Drake, Jr.

Post by A.M. Kuchling
A link to /topics/database might be better, since the topic guide also
links to the various database modules.

That's what I used, since it contains prominent links to both versions
of the API and the list of implementations.

Oh yeah, I hadn't noticed that before but then I know where the APIs are
now ;-).

Perhaps "Topic Guides" could simply be expanded to "Topic Guides -
Database, XML, blah", i.e. pull out the more obvious topics to give
readers more of an idea about what's behind the link.

- Matt

[A.M. Kuchling]

Post by Matt Goodall
Actually, SIGS are *extremely* important right now for the sole reason
that it's where the DB-API is documented. That specification should be
more prominent although I haven't got any suggestions.

The DB-API is also available as PEPs #, err, 248 and 249 I think
(DB-API 1.0/2.0).

--amk

[Skip Montanaro]

Matt> Actually, SIGS are *extremely* important right now for the sole
Matt> reason that it's where the DB-API is documented. That
Matt> specification should be more prominent although I haven't got any
Matt> suggestions.

PEP 248 is DB API v1. PEP 249 is DB API v2.

Skip

[Tim Parkin]

Post by A.M. Kuchling
The problem with the current sidebar is that it's too long and the
links are too jumbled.
My current draft is at http://www.amk.ca/python.org.html, but it still
needs work.

I think the sidebar suffers from the 'it all needs to go on the front
page' disease. Just as there is usually a case to have most things on
the front page, there is an equal case that says there only need be a
handful of direct links. The real answer lies in what is best perceived
by the user and that is a result of a few factors

i) speed in which they know they 'are on the right path'. This doesn't
mean they have found where they are going, as long as you know you are
on your way and it looks acheivable this is sufficient. Conversely it
can be written, don't leave them hunting for ages for the exact solution
when a suitable milestone can be found quickly.

ii) above the fold exposure of all 'paths'. Everything doesn't have to
be above the fold (in the web this typically means the 550 pixels give
or take 50. People will scroll past this but they shouldn't have to for
major items.

iii) the typical user can keep a max of 9-12 items in their heads, any
more becomes a jumble. This can be used to focus in to achive more items
(ie choose on of the first 9 or so and then see another group of up to 9
choose from.

iv) Any room left over should be used for exceptionall common usage
items, prioritising those at the top

These obviously aren't 'rules' but can help avoid pitfalls. Myself and
my colleague Matt went through an analysis of the site content and
performed quick 'new user' test and our notes are at

http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/redesign-notes.txt

These resulted in the grouping shown at

Loading Image...

(for HTML http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/index_rounded.html,
still a couple of browser bugs)

[ While I'm mentioning these and there are a few more people here, could
I solicit more feedback on the designs, cheers ]

The sidebar is as follows for those without browser access

ABOUT>
For Beginners
For Developers
For Business

DOWNLOAD>
Python Stable (2.2.3)
Python Beta (2.3b2)
more ...

DOCUMENTATION>
Tutorials
Library Reference
Standard Modules
Language Reference
more ...

COMMUNITY>
Mailing Lists
Events
User Groups
more ...

DEVELOPERS>
Project Page
PEPs
FAQ
Daily Snapshot
more ...

LINKS>
Vaults of Parnassus
Python Success Stories
Python Starship
Zope Python User Group
Python books
more ...

Post by A.M. Kuchling
* Popular links is too vague a section title. Can someone suggest a
better title, or a rearrangement that makes the choice of title clear?
* The "Exits" section is a jumble of stuff. Why link to PyGame, not
NumPy or PIL or Reportlab or any number of worthy packages? Why link
to the particular topic of web hosting? I'd suggest just dropping the
entire "Exits" section, because it's not clear what it's for.

Just group links into a 'links' section. These can be detailed and
grouped on the interior page

Post by A.M. Kuchling
* "Commercial Exits" is also really long, yet it's still incomplete.
As M.-A. Lemburg pointed out a little while ago, his company, eGenix,
isn't listed. We lack a criterion for adding companies to this list.
IMHO this isn't important enough to consume space on the top page; the
section should be removed and the companies listed somewhere else (in a
marketing section?).

Agreed

Tim Parkin
Pollenation

[Aahz]

Post by A.M. Kuchling
* "Commercial Exits" is also really long, yet it's still incomplete.
As M.-A. Lemburg pointed out a little while ago, his company, eGenix,
isn't listed. We lack a criterion for adding companies to this list.
IMHO this isn't important enough to consume space on the top page; the
section should be removed and the companies listed somewhere else (in a
marketing section?).

It's on my ToDo list to move that to a separate page, but anyone who
wants to go ahead and do it, feel free.

[Skip Montanaro]

amk> The problem with the current sidebar is that it's too long and the
amk> links are too jumbled. My current draft is at
amk> http://www.amk.ca/python.org.html, but it still needs work.
amk> Issues:

amk> * Popular links is too vague a section title. Can someone suggest
amk> a better title, or a rearrangement that makes the choice of title
amk> clear?

I think it's too vague a title because what's underneath it doesn't really
fit together well. It's not obvious what "Python Wiki" has to do with
either the PSF or the PBF. It's also not obvious why you need both "Events"
and "PyCon 2004" there. I'd split what's there into something like:

Popular Pages
Python Job Board
Events
Python Wiki

Python-Related Organizations
Python Software Foundation
Python Business Forum
Python User Groups

("Organizations" as opposed to "Companies".)

PyCon is important and popular, but for the time being it should get enough
attention in the Announcements page. By the time it falls off the bottom of
that bullet list I'm sure some other milestone will have been crossed which
will warrant Aahz recycling it to the top of the list. ;-)

amk> * The "Exits" section is a jumble of stuff. Why link to PyGame,
amk> not NumPy or PIL or Reportlab or any number of worthy packages?
amk> Why link to the particular topic of web hosting? I'd suggest
amk> just dropping the entire "Exits" section, because it's not clear
amk> what it's for.

Lack of firm criteria I think, plus this isn't really the place for this
stuff.

amk> * "Commercial Exits" is also really long, yet it's still
amk> incomplete. As M.-A. Lemburg pointed out a little while ago, his
amk> company, eGenix, isn't listed. We lack a criterion for adding
amk> companies to this list. IMHO this isn't important enough to
amk> consume space on the top page; the section should be removed and
amk> the companies listed somewhere else (in a marketing section?).

Ditto, I think.

I would argue that there is no need for the Exits section at all. There are
both PyPI and the Vaults of Parnassus, not to mention the Python forum on
SourceForge. Commercial Exits clearly needs some criteria so we don't wind
up with 200 companies listed. Maybe that stuff should be moved to a Wiki
page just like PythonHosting. The companies who wish to be listed can
manage their own turf.

Skip

[A.M. Kuchling]

Post by Aahz
It's on my ToDo list to move that to a separate page, but anyone who
wants to go ahead and do it, feel free.

Where would the Commercial Exits go? Should they become the new
community/users page?

--amk

[Aahz]

Post by A.M. Kuchling

Post by Aahz
It's on my ToDo list to move that to a separate page, but anyone who
wants to go ahead and do it, feel free.

Where would the Commercial Exits go? Should they become the new
community/users page?

It'd be a subpage off community (or possibly marketing).

[A.M. Kuchling]

Post by Skip Montanaro
amk> just dropping the entire "Exits" section, because it's not
clear
amk> what it's for.

General opinion seemed to be in favor of dropping Exits and Commercial
Exits, so I've done that in the draft at amk.ca. The sidebar is now
only slightly taller than my screen; if we shrank the font used, it
might all fit.

--amk

[A.M. Kuchling]

Post by Matt Goodall
What about "Builtin IDE (IDLE)" and "Enhancement Proposals"? Perhaps
with tooltips to describe them in more detail if that is useful.

This is a good point. I've been dropping "Python" from link titles
because you *know*
the site is about Python, so the Job Board is likely about Python jobs,
but I'm not sure
about dropping it from PEPs, where the word "Python" is part of the
acronym. (Similarly, the PSF and PBF titles have to remain unchanged.)

There's already a "Developers" link in the top bar, so I'll just drop
that section from the sidebar.

IDE is another acronym, so it's not clear that it'll be any more
understandable for a newbie.
However, /idle/ doesn't really contain a lot of material, so maybe
dropping the IDLE link is OK; I've done that in my current draft. I've
also shortened the content on the main page a bit.

The draft is as always at www.amk.ca/python.org.html.

Post by Matt Goodall
As an aside, I really think that the top-left part of the nav needs to
be **completely** set aside for finding out about Python, particularly
for welcoming beginners.

Suggest a set of beginner's links and we can try it. (But Kevin
reported that many users go to python.org for documentation; the
current link arrangement therefore has version and documentation links
in the upper left corner.)

Incidentally, I received an anecdotal report from one of my SO's
co-workers that it's really annoying when the 'Python' icon in the
upper left-hand corner is actually unreadable. (e.g. one is in the
Wingdings fonts, so it's just a bunch of symbols.) Anyone want to go
through the icons and discard the offending ones?

--amk

[Matt Goodall]

Post by A.M. Kuchling
IDE is another acronym, so it's not clear that it'll be any more
understandable for a newbie.

I would imagine all newbies will know IDE, in fact it's probably **all**
they know ;-). Besides, if they don't know what an IDE is then they
probably wouldn't know what an Integrated Development Environment was
either.

Post by A.M. Kuchling
However, /idle/ doesn't really contain a lot of material, so maybe
dropping the IDLE link is OK; I've done that in my current draft.
I've also shortened the content on the main page a bit.

If IDLE is not listed with other features features already then it
should be. The interactive shell and IDLE are very useful tools.

Post by A.M. Kuchling

Post by Matt Goodall
As an aside, I really think that the top-left part of the nav needs
to be **completely** set aside for finding out about Python,
particularly for welcoming beginners.

Suggest a set of beginner's links and we can try it. (But Kevin
reported that many users go to python.org for documentation; the
current link arrangement therefore has version and documentation links
in the upper left corner.)

See the "About" group in
http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/index_rounded.html or
http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/design2.gif. Yes, it's the menu
is quite different but just getting some of that navigation into the
current design would be good.

Post by A.M. Kuchling
Incidentally, I received an anecdotal report from one of my SO's
co-workers that it's really annoying when the 'Python' icon in the
upper left-hand corner is actually unreadable. (e.g. one is in the
Wingdings fonts, so it's just a bunch of symbols.) Anyone want to go
through the icons and discard the offending ones?

Whoever decided to have rotating images, please put on your flameproof
clothing now ;-) ...

I have always thought having changing images was a terrible idea, never
mind the fact that some are unreadable. Python needs a bit more branding
and that means _one_ nice looking logo in the same place on every page.
The same image should appear in all the documentation and any HTML press
releases too.

- Matt

[Oktay Safak]

----- Original Message -----

Post by Matt Goodall
Whoever decided to have rotating images, please put on your flameproof
clothing now ;-) ...
I have always thought having changing images was a terrible idea, never
mind the fact that some are unreadable. Python needs a bit more branding
and that means _one_ nice looking logo in the same place on every page.
The same image should appear in all the documentation and any HTML press
releases too.

Very good point. +3 ;) We are talking "design" and "marketing" here, after
all.

Regards,

Oktay

[Guido van Rossum]

Post by Matt Goodall
Whoever decided to have rotating images, please put on your flameproof
clothing now ;-) ...

Have you guys lost all of your sense of humor?

--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

[Aahz]

Post by Guido van Rossum
Have you guys lost all of your sense of humor?

Yes.

[Skip Montanaro]

Matt> I have always thought having changing images was a terrible idea,
Matt> never mind the fact that some are unreadable.

Getting rid of unreadable images I can see. I don't understand the aversion
to a little variety.

Skip

[A.M. Kuchling]

Post by Matt Goodall
I have always thought having changing images was a terrible idea, never
mind the fact that some are unreadable. Python needs a bit more branding

I don't really care much about branding, and many of the various fonts
are quite attractive, so I'm happy to keep the rotating logos; my
suggestion is just to winnow out a few of them.

After writing a little script to put them all on one HTML page (didn't
Steve Holden post a link for such a page?), I'd point the finger at the
following ones:

014: greatly fattened letters make it hard to read
019: the Wingdings one: it's button, square, diamond, light bulb, clock, star.
040: zebra stripes; if you squint very hard, you can actually make out the
word, but it's difficult.
053: fattened, pointillist rendering

I'm unsure of 002, 023, and 030; the letters are eroded away, making
the lines very thin and possibly hard to read. I like the pointillist
versions much less than the outline font renderings.

Ones I really liked, BTW: 029 (a nice clean-looking sans-serif), 031
(a calligraphic version), 009 (the famous X-Files font). I find I
prefer ones that slope upward (the right side is higher), and like the
downward-sloping ones less.

--amk (www.amk.ca)
Right, freeze! I mean, don't freeze, I mean stand still!
-- Ace, in "Dragonfire"

[Matt Goodall]

Post by A.M. Kuchling

Post by Matt Goodall
I have always thought having changing images was a terrible idea, never
mind the fact that some are unreadable. Python needs a bit more branding

I don't really care much about branding,

OK, branding was a bad word to use (far too many connotations), I'll let
guys in python-marketing use those sorts of words from now on ;-). The
idea is still important though - a consistent image lets the reader know
they're back at python.org and/or haven't been sent off to another site.

- Matt

[Guido van Rossum]

Post by A.M. Kuchling
009 (the famous X-Files font)

Which I hope everyone remembers was designed by the same Erik van
Blokland who (with Just van Rossum) did the original python.org design.

--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

[Guido van Rossum]

Post by A.M. Kuchling
This is a good point. I've been dropping "Python" from link titles
because you *know* the site is about Python,

OTOH the tiele is what is shown in your bookmarks, and people for whom
Python is not (yet) a way of life might mix bookmarks on multiple
languages. At the very least the home page's title should include the
word Python, probably "Python Home".

--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

[A.M. Kuchling]

Post by A.M. Kuchling
This is a good point. I've been dropping "Python" from link titles
because you *know* the site is about Python,

OTOH the title is what is shown in your bookmarks ...

I should have been clearer; "link titles" should have been "link
text", e.g. instead of "Python Job Board", use just "Job Board" as
the link text. Page titles (that go inside the <title> element)
should always give as many details as possible.

(It's nice to see you weighing on this discussion, BTW.)

--amk (www.amk.ca)
"One's ideas must be as broad as Nature if they are to interpret Nature."
-- Sherlock Holmes, in "A Study in Scarlet"

[Steve Holden]

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 8:47 AM
To: A.M. Kuchling

[...]

I have always thought having changing images was a terrible
idea, never
mind the fact that some are unreadable. Python needs a bit
more branding
and that means _one_ nice looking logo in the same place on
every page.
The same image should appear in all the documentation and any
HTML press
releases too.

Hear, hear! Now all we have to do is settle on which logo to use ...

regards
--
Steve Holden http://www.holdenweb.com/
Python Web Programming http://pydish.holdenweb.com/pwp/

[Matt Goodall]

Post by Steve Holden
Hear, hear! Now all we have to do is settle on which logo to use ...

Phew! Thanks Steve, at least someone else agrees with me ;-).

- Matt

[Skip Montanaro]

Steve> Hear, hear! Now all we have to do is settle on which logo to use
Steve> ...

Matt> Phew! Thanks Steve, at least someone else agrees with me ;-).

You should be able to do it incrementally. Start by removing those which
are most problematic, then converge on a set of "finalists". I forgot the
banners are in CVS. You will probably have to cvs remove them and let
people know so they can cvs up their pics directory. Otherwise, people will
continue to generate pages which reference them.

On the other hand, I rather like the different corner images.

Skip

[Oktay Safak]

Post by Steve Holden
Hear, hear! Now all we have to do is settle on which logo to use ...

Gentlemen, logo submissions start, NOW! ;)

Regards,

Oktay

[Roy Smith]

Post by A.M. Kuchling
The draft is as always at www.amk.ca/python.org.html.

A few random comments;

The "ANNOUNCEMENTS" headline is in a different font and style (center
vs. flush left) from all the other headlines ("Top documentation
links", etc). I find this visually jarring.

The "Welcome to the official website for the Python programming
language" line really doesn't add anything to the page. See this
week's AlertBox colum for more on this
(http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20030811.html).

Does "www.python.org website hosted by XS4ALL" have to get the
prominent place it has now? I don't know who XS4ALL is, but I'm
assuming from the acknowledgement that they're donating web services.
This is nice, and deserve acknowledgement, but is it really the most
important thing on the page that it needs to be where it it, taking up
the most valuable visual real-estate on the page? Could it be moved to
the bottom somewhere?

The "Documentation" section in the sidebar parallels the "Top
documentation links section in the main part of the page. But not
quite. Many of the items are the same, but it's not clear how it was
decided to promote certain items to the sidebar. Neither is a proper
subset of the other. Overall, it's confusing. Where do I find
documentation? Well, some stuff is in one place, some stuff is in the
other? It's difficult to build a mental picture of how to navigate
these pages.

Why do we have a "Developers" link on the nav bar? The target audience
for this is the group of people who maintain the language itself. This
is a very small group of people. Important, but small. They are also
the most tuned-in and sophisticated. Do we really need to devote some
of the most expensive real estate on every page in the entire site to
telling the developers how to find SourceForge? Perhaps just a "how to
get involved" link somewhere on the home page would be enough?

I've come into the conversation somewhat late. Forgive me if some of
the above comments have been brought up before.

[Guido van Rossum]

Post by Roy Smith
The "Welcome to the official website for the Python programming
language" line really doesn't add anything to the page. See this
week's AlertBox colum for more on this
(http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20030811.html).

I'm in strong agreement with the sentiment expressed at that URL, but
IMO *some* indication that this is (a) about a *programming language*
and (b) the *official* Python website is needed. Some people end up
here after here searching Google for solutions to their reptile
problems; others are looking for authorized Python info. (Quick:
which of the many Perl and Tcl sites is the official one?)

--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

[Aahz]

Post by Roy Smith
Why do we have a "Developers" link on the nav bar? The target audience
for this is the group of people who maintain the language itself. This
is a very small group of people. Important, but small. They are also
the most tuned-in and sophisticated. Do we really need to devote some
of the most expensive real estate on every page in the entire site to
telling the developers how to find SourceForge? Perhaps just a "how to
get involved" link somewhere on the home page would be enough?

The home page should IMO be welcoming of a diverse group of people.
While I'm willing to remove the Developers link from the top navbar,
I'll want to keep its prominence on the side navbar ("Python Project").

[Steve Holden]

-----Original Message-----
A.M. Kuchling
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 7:56 AM
To: Pydotorg-Redesign
Subject: Re: [Pydotorg-redesign] Rearranging the python.org sidebar
(again!)

Post by Matt Goodall
What about "Builtin IDE (IDLE)" and "Enhancement

Proposals"? Perhaps

Post by Matt Goodall
with tooltips to describe them in more detail if that is useful.

This is a good point. I've been dropping "Python" from link titles
because you *know*
the site is about Python, so the Job Board is likely about
Python jobs,
but I'm not sure
about dropping it from PEPs, where the word "Python" is part of the
acronym. (Similarly, the PSF and PBF titles have to remain
unchanged.)
There's already a "Developers" link in the top bar, so I'll just drop
that section from the sidebar.
IDE is another acronym, so it's not clear that it'll be any more
understandable for a newbie.
However, /idle/ doesn't really contain a lot of material, so maybe
dropping the IDLE link is OK; I've done that in my current
draft. I've
also shortened the content on the main page a bit.
The draft is as always at www.amk.ca/python.org.html.

Post by Matt Goodall
As an aside, I really think that the top-left part of the

nav needs to

Post by Matt Goodall
be **completely** set aside for finding out about Python,

particularly

Post by Matt Goodall
for welcoming beginners.

I certainly agree that "Python Versions" is a waste of space - we
already have a "Downloads" lin k in the top nav section, and going there
shows you everything that "Python Versions" has in it. I'd just lose
that navbar section altogether.

Also, while "mirror sites" and "site map" are both useful links I thing
they are too far up.

Instead of heading what would become the first section as
"Documentation" (confusing, since there's also a "Documentation" link in
the top nav bar ...) could we have it read "Python: an Agile Programming
Language"? That way we have explained to complete newbies at the top
left of the page what Python is, and the introductory links have the
necessary prominence.

Suggest a set of beginner's links and we can try it. (But Kevin
reported that many users go to python.org for documentation; the
current link arrangement therefore has version and
documentation links
in the upper left corner.)

As I just explained, I don't think we need any other special "beginners"
links.

However, on the "What is Python" page I'd like to see a change from
"Python is an interpreted, interactive, object-oriented programming
language" to "Python is an agile, open source, object-oriented
programming language". Also (from a marketing point of view) that page
focuses far too much on features (What is Python) and nowhere near
enough on benefits (How will Python help me). We should look at a
marketing-assisted rewrite.

Incidentally, I received an anecdotal report from one of my SO's
co-workers that it's really annoying when the 'Python' icon in the
upper left-hand corner is actually unreadable. (e.g. one is in the
Wingdings fonts, so it's just a bunch of symbols.) Anyone want to go
through the icons and discard the offending ones?

We should adopt a common visual style for all pages. Which reminds me,
links like "Editing Python Code" and "Python Books" go to the Wiki. We
should try to ensure that Wiki pages have a look consistent with the
rest of the site to avoid confusing the new reader.

Overall, however, I appreciate what you're doing - this is an excellent
set of changes which will lead to a more useful site for many visitors.

regards
--
Steve Holden http://www.holdenweb.com/
Python Web Programming http://pydish.holdenweb.com/pwp/

[Aahz]

Post by Steve Holden
I certainly agree that "Python Versions" is a waste of space - we
already have a "Downloads" lin k in the top nav section, and going there
shows you everything that "Python Versions" has in it. I'd just lose
that navbar section altogether.

The problem is that currently if we remove Python Versions, you have to
click through at least two pages to make a download; until that's fixed,
it needs to stay.

Post by Steve Holden
Also, while "mirror sites" and "site map" are both useful links I thing
they are too far up.

Agreed about mirrors; disagree about site map. Many people go almost
immediately to site map (or search) if they don't see something
obviously related to what they're looking for, because looking at the
whole site structure helps to figure what's located where.

[Matt Goodall]

Post by Aahz
Agreed about mirrors; disagree about site map. Many people go almost
immediately to site map (or search) if they don't see something
obviously related to what they're looking for, because looking at the
whole site structure helps to figure what's located where.

Interesting, do people go straight to the site map or do they trawl
around the site first and then use it a last resort? Perhaps the use of
the site map is a symptom of other problems? I only say this because I
can't think of a time that I've ever used one myself.

- Matt

[Guido van Rossum]

Post by Matt Goodall
Interesting, do people go straight to the site map or do they trawl
around the site first and then use it a last resort?

The site map is there as a last resort.

Post by Matt Goodall
Perhaps the use of the site map is a symptom of other problems? I
only say this because I can't think of a time that I've ever used
one myself.

On a new site, I usually try browsing first, then searching, then the
site map. A good site map acts as the table of contents of a book: it
shows you the overall structure. Depending on what you're looking
for, this is redundant, unhelpful, or exactly what you need.

--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

[Steve Holden]

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 10:09 AM
To: Pydotorg-Redesign
Subject: Re: [Pydotorg-redesign] Rearranging the python.org sidebar
(again!)

Post by Steve Holden
I certainly agree that "Python Versions" is a waste of space - we
already have a "Downloads" lin k in the top nav section,

and going there

Post by Steve Holden
shows you everything that "Python Versions" has in it. I'd just lose
that navbar section altogether.

The problem is that currently if we remove Python Versions,
you have to
click through at least two pages to make a download; until
that's fixed,
it needs to stay.

Disagree. Clearly the downloads page will improve, but even before that
the current download is one click away, and only older versions require
two. That's placing a disincentive on the use of older versions which
would be a good thing.

Post by Steve Holden
Also, while "mirror sites" and "site map" are both useful

links I thing

Post by Steve Holden
they are too far up.

Agreed about mirrors; disagree about site map. Many people go almost
immediately to site map (or search) if they don't see something
obviously related to what they're looking for, because looking at the
whole site structure helps to figure what's located where.

OK, "site map" could stay at the top of the nav bar, right under the
"search" box (we are going to put "search" on all pages, right?)

regards
--
Steve Holden http://www.holdenweb.com/
Python Web Programming http://pydish.holdenweb.com/pwp/

[Aahz]

BTW, Steve, it would be really handy in these long discussion threads if
you'd use standard quoting.

Post by Steve Holden

Post by Aahz
The problem is that currently if we remove Python Versions, you have
to click through at least two pages to make a download; until that's
fixed, it needs to stay.

Disagree. Clearly the downloads page will improve, but even before
that the current download is one click away, and only older versions
require two. That's placing a disincentive on the use of older
versions which would be a good thing.

Unless you're talking about the Announcements section (which isn't IMO
useful), where's the one click?

Post by Steve Holden

Post by Aahz
Agreed about mirrors; disagree about site map. Many people go almost
immediately to site map (or search) if they don't see something
obviously related to what they're looking for, because looking at the
whole site structure helps to figure what's located where.

OK, "site map" could stay at the top of the nav bar, right under the
"search" box (we are going to put "search" on all pages, right?)

But of course.

[Tim Parkin]

Aahz said

I'm about to set up a directory for placing marketing material, to go
with a new top-level link called "Why Python?". I'm currently leaning
toward making the directory name /why/; other good options would
probably be /marketing/ or /advocacy/ . Comments?

I'm not sure what sort of marketing material is intended to be stored
there. If it's promotional material then it could be a press section. If
it's case studies the a case studies section. Otherwise ?

"Why Python?" seems too generic as in 'Why do we use python', 'Why
should you use python',
'Why does python exist', or it could be an "About.." item. It
may be better to name the links corresponding to the reason why people
are
at the site,i.e. assuming that they wish to answer a questions or solve
a problem.

It seems there would be three possible reasons why people would want
this material

i) convince other people that Python is the right choice
ii) convince themselves that it's the right choice
iii) write articles for magazines, newspapers etc

The first two are very dependant on the audience as the pitch would
be very different to a developer than to a manager (and for different
skill/experience levels).
The last is a more niche section and would consists of promotional
material, press releases and pictures.

My suggestion would be

About
- For beginners
- For developers
- For business

And possibly

- Press

My 2c

Tim Parkin
Pollenation